Posts by jonathan dough

43

Question regarding Holy Spirit...

by tenyearsafter in

i am still muddling my way through both sides of the trinity argument, but i would be very interested in hearing the explanation for the nontrinitarian view of the holy spirit and what it is in light of ephesians 4:29-32 where it speaks about "grieving the holy spirit".

if the holy spirit is just god's active force, as we were taught as jw's, how can we grieve it?

grieving would indicate a personality or feelings that could be "grieved".

jonathan dough

Here's the JW position:

Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper,” and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (pa-ra’kle-tos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneumatic) is used, the neuter pronoun “it” is properly employed.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’
So, when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa-ra-kle-tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8)
Which is wrong as per: http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

43

Question regarding Holy Spirit...

by tenyearsafter in

i am still muddling my way through both sides of the trinity argument, but i would be very interested in hearing the explanation for the nontrinitarian view of the holy spirit and what it is in light of ephesians 4:29-32 where it speaks about "grieving the holy spirit".

if the holy spirit is just god's active force, as we were taught as jw's, how can we grieve it?

grieving would indicate a personality or feelings that could be "grieved".

jonathan dough

All I have is a pro-Trinitarian response.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

frankie, are you covered in tatoos?

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#40

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

I was using Hinduism as an example of other cultures that have tackled contemplating the existence of God, but not in an exact Western Christian definition.

I'm glad you said that because their approaches are diametrically opposed, although Aquinas smacks of pantheism or panentheism, which is soundly rejected by the RCC.

So Designs, how come you stopped being an asshole? You were playing tricks on us.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

DESIGN: If a hypothesis joins Jesus to God in any intrinsic way it should follow that as God is transcedent so are any "modes" that God expresses.

So if God is omnipresent then Jesus would be also under that theory, in other words Jesus should not be confined to a 5'6" human frame in his current existence, or if he were confined to that frame it would still make him God because he is 'filled' with the God things, and by that same hypothesis that makes Jesus God everything should also be considered in the same weight since you have a Divine Being everywhere.

The triune indivisibility should exist everywhere. There should be no place where God is not. Even if the brightness of God exists greater in some place rather than another that cannot diminish God's divineness, a Supreme Being can't exist 89% over there and 111% someplace else.

I was using Hinduism as an example of other cultures that have tackled contemplating the existence of God, but not in an exact Western Christian definition.

----------------------------

ME: I agree, sort of, see below, as long as we are talking about the resurrected Christ who was folded into the Trinity. So what are we arguing about? How does this prove that Jesus was/is not God?

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

The 'everything is god' is the metaphysical problem intrinsic to the Trinity due to its expressed teachings of-

Hypostatic union

Indivisibilty

Omnipresence

Can you cite any authority? The hypostatic union concerns the christology of Christ, His nature, that he was/is God-man. It does not stand for the proposition that "everything is God" as you claim and accordingly can't be a metaphsical problem intrinsic to the Trinity. The triune God's indivisibility refers to the fact that the three persons of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are inseparable, indivisible among themselves, yet distinct. It does not mean "Everything is God." I think you are comingling Hindu religions with Trinitarian Christianity.

In most formularies the doctrine is stated by saying that God is one in His essential being, but that in this being there are three Persons, yet so as not to form separate and distinct individuals. They are three modes or forms in which the divine essence exists. ‘Person’ is, however, an imperfect expression of the truth in as much as the term denotes to us a separate rational and moral individual. But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self-distinctions within the one divine essence. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)

With respect to the Almighty's "omnipresence," what exactly are we arguing about? Are you saying that Hinduism and western theism hold to the exact same definition of omnipresence? I'm trying to sharpen the issue, and see how it relates to whether Jesus was, and is, God. Help me understand what point you are trying to make with respect to God's "omnipresence."

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#3

57

You are Still Special After Exiting the Witnesses-You Have a Purpose in Life

by flipper in

jw
friends

i wanted to post this as we have so many new ones on the board here - i thought they might benefit from some uplifting words from steve hassan's book " releasing the bonds " .

many newly exiting the jw 's feel lost , like they don't know what to do , or where to turn, what causes that ?

notice these quotes from steve hassan .. on pg.

jonathan dough

So what about those of us who have not managed to find a "purpose" to replace JW beliefs? Are we unspecial failures?

I don't know about that group, unless they are avowed atheists or God-haters; the anti-Christs of the world.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/

57

You are Still Special After Exiting the Witnesses-You Have a Purpose in Life

by flipper in

jw
friends

i wanted to post this as we have so many new ones on the board here - i thought they might benefit from some uplifting words from steve hassan's book " releasing the bonds " .

many newly exiting the jw 's feel lost , like they don't know what to do , or where to turn, what causes that ?

notice these quotes from steve hassan .. on pg.

jonathan dough

Until then - I still believe there is NOTHING wrong with saying we just don't know. I'm a happy person . Just because a person exits the witnesses doesn't mean they HAVE to join another religion and fall under control again ! If they choose to be agnostic or atheist - they can be just as happy and successful as someone who chooses to join a new church. There is no " right way " or " wrong way " to exit the JW cult. Just get the hell out of the cult. Doesn't matter.

You're wrong, Flipper. I'm looking at it from God's perspective, not man's. As I said here and on other posts, atheists and God-haters can have great lives now, and for themselves leaving the cult is a good for them, now, in this life. But if they deny Christ and God and turn their back on Him, then from God's perspective, not man's, they are better off in the Society, in the long run, when it is all said and done. A great, happy life won't do the person any good in the end if it comes at the expense of denying God and becoming anti-Christ. Nowhere did I say that Christians have better lives, or that atheists are Godhaters - they can't be because they don't believe in God. And just to clarify, I said nothing about agnostics. I'll re-post what I actually said:

But whatever you do, don't make the mistake of turning your back on Scripture like the ex-JW atheists and God-haters on this site have done; they are just Satan's minions and offer very little in the long run. The biggest mistake you can do is pretend that the Bible is not the word of God, and thereby do your own thing as you see fit. It's understandable that the JWs have poisoned you to the truth as represented in the Bible, but that is their version, their error, and that's based on their NWT Bible, which is no real Bible at all. If you have been in for very long, you probably have been brainwashed to believe that Christendom is the work of Satan. It's not. You probably think the Trinity is the work of the devil. It's not. You have just been mislead to believe that.

Don't turn your back on Him and deny Him. Do not be anti-Christ. Don't swing from one ridiculous extreme to another more ridiculous extreme. From the Almighty's perspective you are better off in the cult and believing in Him than denying Him. I don't need to tell you the risks involved. Plenty of good protestants and catholics out there. Some of them are preaching on the radio.

Nice initial post by Flipper, though. Not taking anything away from that.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#trinity-home

http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

And of course the central issue that Jesus as the Word comes from Eternity and therefore is God to the reader says- hey! everything came through that route, there is no other way to get here....ie the Hindu claim that everything is God/Divine.

I don't think so. You might stretch logic that far but the doctrine of the Trinity and Christianity in general does not teach that like the pagan Hindus everything is God/divine. If you could quote something, cite something to that effect that would help. Following your train of thought, Satan is God and divine. Christians don't believe or teach that.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html